Things left unsaid:
I think the main reason that the current proposal is before the voters is that the School Board thinks it stands a much better chance of passing. The High School bond issue went down in flames. As I recall it did into even get a majority. It needed sixty percent. The first elementary school issue passed.
Once again class size was introduced. Perhaps the most favorable view from the Education Cartel’s viewpoint comes from the left wing think tank, Brookings. “[I]t appears that very large class-size reductions, on the order of magnitude of 7-10 fewer students per class, can have significant long-term effects on student achievement and other meaningful outcomes. These effects seem to be largest when introduced in the earliest grades, and for students from less advantaged family backgrounds.” http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2011/05/11-class-size-whitehurst-chingos The author, Russ Whitehurst used to head Whatworksclearinghouse and is generally respected as an honest researcher. You might want to read the whole thing.
Unless a change in class size is at least in the range of 7 – 10 and is in grade three or lower, class size changes should not be an issue relevant to this proposal. There are many things we can do to improve education outcomes than improving facilities and for far less money.
Please feel free to post your thoughts on the original article as well as replies to this post.
Underwater Couple
8:12 am on Tuesday, February 26, 2013
Mr. Morgan:
Date: 2/26/2013
A formal request (2nd)
Supply the below data and publish this on Patch.
Number of FTE’s (Full Time Equivalent) Teachers and the number of Non Teachers (Overhead) by year, each year from 2005 through 2013. Separate numbers if you will.
I consider this a key piece of data that any School Board Member, Chairman or Superintendent should have readily available. This would be a pretty basic managerial statistic for any well run organization.
Taxpayers would need this as well, considering the constant requests for ten of millions if not hundred of millions of dollars
Thank You
Peter Morgan
8:17 pm on Tuesday, February 26, 2013
The internet is a mysterious place. Sometimes things just disappear into the ether, like the response I made to this posting under a different article on Monday. I’ve emailed Michael Ryan and asked if he could find it. I find that direct emails don’t tend to get lost in the ether. If you’d like to email me, my address is pmorgan@sau57.org. Meanwhile, here’s a re-cap of my earlier response.
I don’t have complete data on enrollments and teachers from 2005-2013. This is, however, public information and anyone can get it by making a formal request through the Office of the Superintendent. The district may, under RSA 91-A:4, recover the cost of reproducing the information. Please understand that an anonymous posting on Patch is not a formal request.
I do know that over the years 2007-2011 enrollments in Salem declined by nearly 1,100 students and the number of employed teachers declined by 32 teachers. So in fact as enrollments declined, so did the number of employed teachers.
This information was also in a previous blog post that you can find under my name in the Patch blog archives. It was posted June 20, 2012 and discussed some of the reasons why costs don’t necessarily decline with enrollments. Feel free to review the posting and email me any questions you have about it.
Tom Linehan
6:13 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
@Peter Morgan, allowing replies to my blog is useful, isn't it?
Underwater Couple
7:08 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Going from a Student/teacher Ratio of 16 in 2006 to 12.8 in 2012 has been the largest driver of School Costs "Being Out Of Control"
Why has nobody talked about this, am I missing something? Did I miss that meeting?
Where was the School Committee in disclosing this to the voters?
Where was SOS in disclosing this to the voters?
Where was the School Superintendent in disclosing this to the Voters?
Where was the Union in disclosing this to the voters?
Why does someone like me have to do the research myself on such an important matter?
Underwater Couple
7:37 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
School enrollment going from 5,302 in 2005 to 3,402 projected in 2017 has not adequately been considered in any of the Infrastructure plans for Salem.
Ditto the where was Comments above.
Underwater Couple
8:11 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Vote NO on any infrastructure funding. Since School Enrollement and Student/teacher ratios have not been given the appropraite and major weight the likelyhood of increased taxes with no improvement to the education of Salems children is high.
salem mom
8:38 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Underwater couple, The reason you don't hear this discussed at this point is that this is exactly what they planned to do. When the 600 Windham students left us, there were only a handful of teachers laid off. The reason was to bring down the average class size. I believe they are silent on this now becuase they are still scratching their heads trying to figure out why our scores continue to drop despite their brilliant move to lower the average class size. I'm sure they believe that they just need more teachers and a larger budget and surely our test scores will rebound.
Underwater Couple
8:37 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Casino Revenues
The only bright side of our School Infrastructure funding issues is the possibility of a Casino in Salem. The millions of dollars that it would provide the Town would lessen that very serious blow to Taxpayers. Taxpayers do have monetary limits, a fact which has always been ignored by the competing factions.
Good planning would have prevented this but we must deal with where we are now.
I would remind the Unions in the Town that these monies should all be earmarked for INFRASTRUCURE.
VOTE YES next month on CASINOS.
Soujourner Truth
8:55 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
The "millions" would come to Salem only IF and WHEN slots are approved by both houses of the NH legislature, a regulatory system is put in place, and the Salem bidders are actually awarded the license. All this done and approved today, we're looking at least 3-4 years down the road before revenues flow to good old Salem. Further, the priority for expending those "millions" would have to be upgrades to our surface roads to accommodate increased traffic, water/sewer and other necessary infrastructure improvements and public safety. Those "millions" are already spent, and merely represent some offset to added costs to host a slots barn in Salem. I'm not counting on a penny left over to address existing needs in town.
Underwater Couple
8:58 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
THE SOCIAL COSTS ON THOSE WHO PAY THE BILLS IN SALEM
Retired people and people without children are those who foot the bills of Salem****. Those with children and Unions are a significant burden on them.
Does anyone think this MONEY burden does not ADVERSLY AFFECT THEIR LIVES. The “Self Centered” view that Casinos carry Social Costs ignores the financial burdens (Social Costs) of the people that support and pay for this Town to operate.
Vote Yes next month on Casinos. The people I am talking about need the help.
**** This was discussed and proven quite a while ago and I will reopen the issue if needed
Love NH
10:24 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
I'm not sure how this was "proven". I am fairly sure that businesses foot more of the bill than retired people and people without children. They get no benefit from the transfer station, senior center, or schools. And business represent about 50% of the tax revenues in town,
Love NH
9:16 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Mark Twain popularized the saying "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Underwater Couple, your post falls into this category. You want us to be shocked by this meteoric drop in class size, but did you take the time to see how we compare to the rest of the state? I did.
Using your same information.
As At………Student/Teacher Ratio.....Salem Ranking in NH
10-1-12………………12.8......................138/161 (86%)
10-1-11………………13.2......................139/161 (86%)
10-1-10………………13.8......................149/161 (93%)
10-1-09………………14.0......................154/162 (95%)
10-1-08………………14.5......................154/162 (95%)
10-1-07………………15.6......................158/162 (97%)
10-2-06………………16.0......................159/162 (98%)
So currently in the 2012/2013 school year there are 137 schools in NH with smaller class sizes and 23 with larger class sizes than Salem which puts us in the bottom 15%. This is hardly the grand excess that you want us to believe. Instead, Salem School District class sizes have merely progressed from horrendous to really bad. Moreover right or wrong, this is one of the things that people look at when moving to a town and when they see aging decrepit schools and high class sizes they tend to move on to the next town.
Underwater Couple
9:20 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Let them move to the next Town. We do not want to pay for new URCHINS as we are having trouble funding the existing URCHINS in Salem.
salem mom
9:32 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Love NH, Your quote applies to you as well. Statistics beget statistics? When my husband and I moved to Salem I can tell you we looked at tax burden, school test scores, graduation rates and % attending a 4 year college. In that order. We did not look at class size, becuase as Mr. Linehan pointed out, that is not an indicator of a well performing school district (unless it is at the younger ages and our small classes are at the HS level, not the elementary) or quality education and we did not drive by or go into any of the schools. While it is not statisically significant, I can tell you that there is not one of my friends that did either. Since we moved to town, our tax burden has sky-rocketed and our test scores have dropped. So we are spending more money but i'm not seeing the return on that money in a better education for my children.
Love NH
10:18 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Sadly, that is the error that many who moved to Salem have committed. When you use tax rate as your first indicator, you need to also look at the age and condition of the infrastructure. Salem neglected its infrastructure for many years until it has reached a point where it must be repaired. Look at all the red listed bridges that have needed to be rebuilt. The roads were horrible until we started putting some money into them starting a few years ago. And the schools and the police station are a mess. Salem had an artificially low tax rate because of years of neglect. And even now that we are putting some money into fixing them, we are still in the middle of the pack for tax rate.
Underwater Couple
10:26 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Who did not use BUDGETED MAINTAINANCE DOLLARS on actaul maintainence. It wasn't the taxpayers.
salem mom
10:28 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Love NH, I disagree that it is an error, but agree that our boards have neglected the facilities and road. All the more reason to get the existing board members out and new blood in. They have left us with no alternative but to fix many things in a short period of time. The existing residents and businesses cannot handle the large increase in taxes in such a short term duirng an economic downturn. As a result of the town leaderships inactions over a decade (s) some hard decisions need to be made. The Haigh school should not be renovated (no on 2), the larger gym at soule should be forgone (no on 6) and all existing board members should be voted out.
Love NH
10:50 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
The existing board members are fixing the problems. Blame the board memners from 10 or 15 years ago for the mess we are in now.
Love NH
2:03 pm on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Salem Mom. The Haigh renovations is 3 not 2. So, you mean yes on 2 and no on 3. I'm with you on the larger gym. You can't vote out all existing board members since there are two spots open and two incumbents and one challenger running. So you are going to get at least 1 existing board member back for 3 years.
Tom Linehan
8:35 pm on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
@Salem Mom and @Love NH The school board members whose terms are up, Peter Morgan whose father is running for Bud Com and Pat Corbin who is Selectman Mike Lyon's sister, are running unopposed. It is very hard to unseat a School Board member. Pam Berry almost lost about 10 years ago. I can not remember the last time a sitting School Board member was defeated. I think the last one may have been Bernie Campbell's father in the 1960s. I am leaning toward voting No on 3 (Haigh School) and No on 6 (Soule Gym) as well.
Underwater Couple
8:41 pm on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Explains the Audacity of turning off comments sections or not even campaigning at all. Such an environment results in what we now experience. More costs year after year. Infrastructure issues. Mediocre results for our children. Unsustainable Union Contracts, Mystery Bonuses.
In a nutshell, no accountabilty.
Love NH
10:37 am on Thursday, February 28, 2013
Tom, that's Patty Corbett, not Corbin. And I agree that it is very hard to unseat an incumbent in Salem. But so few qualified candidates ever try. There is a third candidate for School Board, J.J. Manning, but as I said so few QUALIFIED candidates try. What about you next year. You certainly see interested enough.
Underwater Couple
9:40 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Mark Twain on Fools
Hain't we got all the fools in town on our side? And ain't that a big enough majority in any town?
- The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
Let us be thankful for the fools; but for them the rest of us could not succeed.
- Following the Equator; Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar
If you send a damned fool to St. Louis, and you don't tell them he's a damned fool, they'll never find out.
- Life on the Mississippi
If all the fools in this world should die, lordly God how lonely I should be.
- Letter to Olivia Clemens, 1/23/1885
The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
- More Maxims of Mark, Johnson, 1927
Ah, well, I am a great and sublime fool. But then I am God's fool, and all His work must be contemplated with respect.
- Mark Twain, a Biography
Love NH
10:20 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
I see you have mastered Google.
[Not impressed]
Underwater Couple
10:43 am on Thursday, February 28, 2013
Bing. I am not trying to impress you. Whatever gave you that idea.
Underwater Couple
10:54 am on Wednesday, February 27, 2013
Whatever happened to that $800,000 Slush Fund that was not a Slush Fund. Anybody know?
B. SHANER
12:59 pm on Thursday, February 28, 2013
Underwater Couple- Is there anything you like about Salem or for that matter is there anything positive you can say about anything. I think the question you should ask is why don't you move out of the town you obviously dislike. You really don't have your facts correct, basically on anything, you just shoot venom about everything. Leave Town if you are so unhappy. People are trying to make Salem a place the citizens can respect and all you do is degrade those that are trying.
B. SHANER
1:01 pm on Thursday, February 28, 2013
Oh BTW again Tom Linehan doesn't have his fact correct. Tom please stop pretending you are the authority on everything. You must be exhausted.
Riley Reid
11:46 pm on Sunday, March 3, 2013
I wish I had stayed in the islands. Coming home to Salem and seeing this is till going on is painful
Tom Linehan
6:32 pm on Thursday, February 28, 2013
There is only one way to avoid criticism: do nothing, say nothing and be nothing. Aristotle.